BOOK

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In 2011, the editors Burkhard Beins, Christian Kesten, Gisela Nauck and Andrea Neumann published echtzeitmusik selbstbestimmung einer szene / self-defining a scene (berlin 1995-2010) This publication is an attempt to define the Echtzeit music scene from within, encompassing individual accounts, interviews, essays and statements by members from the scene itself.

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BONUS TRACKS

On Land and Ulf Sievers

Affinity and Collaboration

Belonging to a scene

picture Inside Piano

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Andrea Neumann

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For Faces by Antonia Baehr. With Sabine Ercklentz, William Wheeler, Arantxa Martinez and Andrea Neumann Photo: Anja Weber

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Transcript

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Yeah, it's probable that the Echtzeit music scene is very special in this way: having not a lot of financial profit out of it.

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Then there are other forms, symbolic capital. This is how she calls it, there's this Marta in her social in the first part. What I thought was very interesting, why somebody gets attention or why somebody is important.

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It's not about money or giving money or getting money. It's about some other issues.

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I came to Berlin in 1988.

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Of course, when the wall came down, there was a lot of free and empty space, especially in East Berlin where a lot of West Berliners came.

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Young people, students who squatted it.

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That was perfect for this kind of scene where no money was involved, but there were a lot of opportunities to meet or to set up things.

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I think it was about curious people who wanted to try something new or something else: not doing something in the categories that existed already, like jazz, free jazz, new music, noise, rock, whatever.

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But who were looking for something else that they could not define, but what they just wanted to try and explore.

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There were… I think one of the most important clubs at that time - the beginning of the 1990s - was called Anorak.

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It was here in Dunckerstrasse in Prenzlauerberg.

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It was a meeting point, every sunday.

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It was clear: you didn't look in the program for what was going to happen. You just wanted to go to meet people and to have a nice party night, in a way.

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And there were a lot of other places where people organized concerts, or little festivals, or sessions.

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These sessions were meeting points where everyone came with there instruments and their backgrounds, or no backgrounds, or being

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classically trained, or autodidact, or coming from jazz or rock…

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They met and they tried just to play without talking and making concepts and thinking about it.

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It was a very creative atmosphere

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and i think there were influences by New York downtown at that time, like John Zorn from the 1980s.

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There were rock aspects, trashy, jazzy and improvised.

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I think I was involved…

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I was very fascinated by that when I was in my study in classical piano, which is a very bourgeois scenery. The university is very closed.

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They have - they had, now it is different - they had not so much connection to the outside world.

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The inside world was when there was a Klassevorspiel by a professor. That was the most exciting for the students that you can ever imagine. It was just in front of the other students, everyone was trembling like hell. Super nervous.

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And also the professors were in this world. When they played - they never played, because they wanted to be the master, they didn't want to proof it, maybe - When they played it was also for them a very very exciting thing.

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And then going out of this and going to these trashy spaces where everything could happen was quite great.

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I remember that I asked 'can I come and play?'. It was Nicholas Bussmann, one of the first guys who was inviting other people to come and join.

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And then someone came from the theatre or performance scene and they were not playing music, but walking in the room and doing strange things and jumping almost on the cello's so that the cello player was really angry. There was a lot of trouble around this and a lot of discussions: is this possible? What can you do? What are you allowed to do?

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My thing is… I was a piano player and a big influence was also this scene.

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I thought 'I don't have an instrument to go there to play with'. There were not so many piano's in these squatted places.

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Then I came up with the idea of taking out the frame out of the piano and just to use the strings.

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With this instrument I could go and play.

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Another interesting thing about what is possible, what not allowed, what is allowed.

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In this very open minded music area,

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there were some people who were going more into contemporary music areas, reducing materials and dynamics, choosing a very special musical material.

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Avoiding clear harmonies, pitches, rhythms.

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Some liked that and some not, so there were divisions of different directions to go during this 'free period' maybe.

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And some 'hard headed', self-minded people worked together more and more on this more reduced music.

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When I should describe these early times of what we call the 'Echtzeit music' scene…

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Last year we saw a documentary by an Australian guy about this place Anorak.

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We were so surprised how male dominated this scene was at that time.

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You could see it in the audience, how many girls were there. A lot of times the girlfriend of a musician, or they would be behind the bar.

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They were super nice, but not in power. You could see that.

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And even the guys were not super macho, but they were just in this behaviour of 'we are in power and we don't question it' and the girls are girls.

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It was very binary in a way.

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The main strategy was to follow your work very seriously and to take your space as a musician.

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I was not acting so much in this social area, I think, to put borders…

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Even at that time, I was less aware of it than later.

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I also had a duo with another female musician, Annette Krebs and we were hanging together very closely and we were developping our own musical language.

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We didn't play for one year. A lot of people wanted to show their results very quickly, because they just wanted to perform publicly.

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But we said 'no, we have to really do something. we really think it's convincing.'

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And then after one year we started to travel and we got some attention and also internationally, step by step.

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We played in London and there was a girl who got invited to a festival in Autria and then she invited us too.

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Then there was a label chef who asked us to do a CD, so it was a little bit like domino.

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We found a way to be taken seriously.

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One thing I was thinking about today was:

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one strategy for example, because maybe later we can talk about the function or role of the body in making music and then also working with Sabine and Antonia took quite a big role and is influencing my work since then.

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This is one very important aspect for me.

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And at that time, a strategy against being discriminated of being taken seriously was to act with your clothes.

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You didn't try to be traditionally female.

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As less as possible.

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If you would look too female, you would just be in the corner.

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This is interesting, because you hide things. You hide something.

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Of course you can choose what you want to show, but it was a very forced decision to know 'if I show this part I won't be taken seriously'.

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That means also that you forget about the body.

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You don't want to think about it. You just want to say: 'This is my music

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and don't look at the person who is playing it.'

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A colleague of mine said: 'I'm just the medium and the music is going through me.

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I have to be as invisible as possible not to distract them from the music.'

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This is really anti-physical or anti-body.

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I think one important thing about the connection is the sound.

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Especially to improvise together, when you don't have a clear plan what to do, then you relate just on the moment to what you hear in this moment.

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Then you start to build, create different kinds of relations by the sound.

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And you express everything by the sound.

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I think that this kind of musicians have similar kinds of approaches to themselves or to the world by choosing this medium and this way, this practice of making art.

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You can also…

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Then the connection was also a lot about the social acting.

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People just put their work in setting up concerts, doing the room and the sound and the light and the technical thing and the curatorial work without getting any money.

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And then they invited people.

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This is also a quality… The change… One day you went to a concert and a person was behind the bar and the next day he or she was on stage.

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But the physical contact was through sound, in a way.

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Of course when you really earn money as an artist you are on stage, you won't be behind the bar.

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But also being a curator or being behind the bar was part of this 'Selbstverständnis'.

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It was not a big problem, because we knew we had to do this to do our music.

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Sometimes there was the danger when you were too much working as a curator.

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Then the scene, the perception of the scene or even of the international scene was: 'Ah, this is a curator!' And then he was always asked to set up concerts but never asked to play somewhere. So you had to find a balance.

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To think about what keeps it together was also to define yourself in contrast to other scenes.

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There was an older jazz and free jazz scene in Berlin, where it was as a young person really difficult to get a gig there.

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The music was set up in a way that the dynamics and energy were a lot of things the thing to go for.

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If you had not a loud instrument or if you were not interested in this kind of orgastic dynamic flow - which can be a very nice quality - but if you could not do that then you were just out.

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This was I think a much more male dominated scene than the next generation.

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There were almost no women and the men were really going for the power and strength.

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There was some sort of teacher who set up a workshop group.

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He was from the older generation

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and we were thinking about doing monthly a concert series with this group. Then inside the group we decided not to have only us, but also other people playing.

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Then the teacher said it has to be just this group and then we split up. The group stayed there and we started in “KuLe”

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  • I don't know if you know this place.

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Then Gregor Hotz - he's now doing the Ausland, another important club - he was starting with Labor Sonor, with Steffi Weismann,

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she's a visual artist and also an audio, video and performance artist.

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The three of us started this concert series 'Labor Sonor'.

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While saying 'no' to this guy we set up our own thing. And then it was really packed at the first event and we were so proud that it worked.

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There is not one style, but different styles and these styles can be very defined.

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For example, just to talk about this little group of people who started at the end of the nineties to reduce material and to focus on very specific things;

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that was a very strict group of people.

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We had sessions and when someone just would sing pitches, she wasn't invited again.

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It was a no go area.

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It was not tolerant at all.

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But by excluding so many things, it got very strong and there was a very clear output coming out. This also got attention by international festivals.

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It's interesting that by not being tolerant and quite closed, you get something very specific.

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At the same time there were people going more into electronic music and club music.

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They are still part of the scene. And now we come to another point, which is not only music but this social aspect.

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If you agree to play for nothing, then you want that. Maybe you have to fulfill some parameters, or maybe you were there from the beginning, but then you are part of it.

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Even when your music goes another way. But if there comes somebody with a similar approach to music, but he sets up a show with an exclusive meal that costs thirty Euro, he would never enter the scene.

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It's very interesting how strict it is, in a way. I know some people who wanted to enter and who couldn't. That's very frustrating.

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There is no reason… There's just…

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They are new, or they don't know the right friends…

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I think one thing is important to mention about how this scene is organized. There's a webpage: www.echtzeitmusik.de, organized by Arthur Rother.

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A very very important job.

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There are more and more clubs now, at least twenty.

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There was a moment where there were only three. And in all these clubs there's happening a lot of different music too.

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All these clubs are in this calendar. You can find the venues, proposing their program.

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We had a discussion about what is Echtzeit music and what is not. So if it was too much jazz, it was not.

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But who decides that in a self-organized scene? There is no mastermind who would say 'you no, you yes.'

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I think Arthur gave the key to enter this calendar to quite a lot of people he had trust in.

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And now, there is the button, you can press the button…

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People decide themselves.

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When there is a guy who is playing a lot of Echtzeit music - let's call it like this - and he's doing a jazz gig, but this is maybe jazz but a litle bit more experimental then jazz, it is much easier to have the “Echtzeit”-Button, than when there is not that guy in the group…

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So one thing I always try to explain - because I'm also part of the curatorial team of Labor Sonor. When we talk about it…

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it is as if the music has a meta-layer on itself.

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If you have a beautiful pentatonic music line, and you use it because it is just beautiful, then maybe you need a reflection on it.

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To put a light on it and then it already changes.

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Maybe to think about the context, or…

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Of course it can't be like a definite already existing style…

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I would say. So if there is a folk singer, then it is a folk singer.

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But of course we have somebody in the Echtzeit scene who is doing also songs, but very minimalistic and with this certain perspective on it that makes it something else.

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Sometimes it is really dificult.

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Sometimes we had a duo with electro pop music, and then we ask ourselves what is Echtzeit music aspect of this?

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They were presenting their music with a very low energy, super underestimating way. This was really bizar, so you could say yes, it was breaking something in this context of electro pop.

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Myself I am experimenting.

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I mean my instrument is not able to play harmonies, pitches, a little bit rhythms and I try to find a way to…

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To find structures that are convincing with this kind of material and as this material is not so much used in other genres, I feel like that.

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But sometimes with Sabine…

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Now we are more into emotions in our music, I think, and then it gets maybe a little bit more into a club area. Maybe I say this and everyone is like 'this is far away from club music'.

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Ja.

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Also now I'm doing sometimes mimicry, cause I did the music for a Hörspiel.

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My music had a clear function - it was not an abstract Hörspiel. It was a narrative story and I had to support the story.

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There's a moment that everyone gets drunk and it's funny and it is sort of a waltz-rhythme, so I put with the high strings sounds like The Third Man music with the Citar.

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So I don't know if this is Echtzeit Musik, but as it is produced with this strange instrument probably it is.

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No, it has not to be always new.

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But this is of course the danger of an avant-garde scene that wants to be creative and new.

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I was asked some weeks ago: 'When did you discover your last new sound?' And it is quite a long time ago, so I was a little bit like: 'Uhm, when was that?'

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Then I found out that it is not about creating another new sound, but about…

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creating new ideas with the material I do have.

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Maybe this is also part of this connecting thing, being connected to the other musicians.

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This is also the danger of this kind of music where you improvise, so you decide in the moment what to do, even when what you do has a sort of language that the musicians know.

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When you have experiences and you played for a long time, there are certain patterns of action and reaction that are boring. So you change them. You surprise people by doing really something unexpected.

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This is for a musician who knows the old pattern interesting and funny and wow.

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I'm not sure how it is for people who have no experience listening to it.

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So if they get the 'crazy' thing…

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I want to do research on the reception of this kind of music.

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Because sometimes I hope that the live in this… When you don't play what you played a lot of times, but you break the routines and you make an unexpected decission, that this goes over, goes into the audience even when they don't know exactly why.

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I don't know exactly, because it can be music for specialists. That's the problem.

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I mean, one thing to say is that there is this underground scene in Berlin but a lot of musicians living here and working here together, are earning money abroad. They are invited to festivals, they have residencies,…

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And also there are structures who try to establish it like Gregor Hotz. He's the organizer of an orchestra, with a lot of musicians from the scene, 24 people, and he's trying a lot of things. We got Ensemble Förderung and we got invited to established festivals with money to invite this big group.

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Also single musicians are not…

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Yeah, there is…

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this basic thing that is always happening here: the low money, no money thing. But then there are other things, in the music area, with more audience.

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It's a funny thing why this is so…

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The truth is that sometimes somebody comes to a concert and he says 'this is a private thing, I'm not part of this family, why am i here?'. Of course this is strange.

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It's strange and at the same time it's some sort of home for a lot of people here, in a way.

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I think it's one of my 'legs' with which I stand on the floor, where I feel quite good.

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It's that.

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It's a different trust than to close friends, in a way, but it's some… So…

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I don't know.

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By making music together you create a very special dynamic between people and that is a boundary in a way.

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You know that if I would be alone all of a sudden, because I seperate from my partner or something like this, I would probably go a lot of times to all these venues and I would know that I would meet all these people. Even I don't have to make a phone call, 'let's meet', I would meet them there.

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Also this respect we give to each other, I think.

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Which is helping a lot, even when we don't get crazy feedback from the whole world, it's a very important thing. But then you can also ask 'hmm, maybe this is you self satisfied by something, but maybe it is a ghetto'.

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I think, as this generation that was young in the nineties is getting now over 40, I think there are also longings to make it more visible.

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This is why the book came up.

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Trying to invite people who normally not come… Maybe first trying to find other people from the dance scene or performance people and mix it a little bit.

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Because it is very unique too, that so many people also stayed there and stayed connected.

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This is also documented in the book, there was this 'Echtzeit Musik Tage' in 2009 and there were all these from the nineties that came.

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Also younger musicians were involved.

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This makes me very sentimental to see that they are all still there and they all still work and they still are sort of friends.

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I think that the output of the music has an importance and that people should get to know it.

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There was this Peter Niklass Wilson, he is a musician and he wrote about music. He did several books in several areas.

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'Here and Now', it's published I think in the eighties.

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And also a book about this sort of reductionism time in Berlin.

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And he died and he was the voice for this kind of music. And as he disappeared there was not really someone who had the knowledge and the insight to put it together.

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Then we thought, okay…

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And this is also interesting because it's made by the people who are involved. It's a mosaic and how it is called 'self-defining'. We try to self define. This is also very unique.

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I think there was the wish to extend the borders of this autonomous music.

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To go and take a step up and go over this frame.

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As I said that the body took not a big importance.

00:34:32,02700:34:45,986

One example: There's a very great Japanese musician, Sachiko M., that plays sine wave. And with sine wave every head move changes the way you recieve the music.

00:34:45,98600:34:58,421

Because she just wanted to have one perspective, she was not even moving her head. She just turns some knobs with her very tiny hands.

00:34:58,42100:35:01,861

It's beautiful, very beautiful, and a very strong appearance.

00:35:01,86100:35:09,922

But there is no movement at all and ja… I think…

00:35:09,92200:35:42,152

I mean, no, my approach to the body was quite early. I was in a contemporary music concert and I saw that at the end of the piece the violinist took his bow up and it stays in the air and this is the moment, this is the end. It's very clear. It creates a tension and also what happened before is really important.

00:35:42,15200:35:56,587

Just digest it and then he took the bow down and that was the end. And this ritual, these codes of music practice, is not at all reflected.

00:35:56,58700:36:03,936

Everybody sees it in the audience, but no one is wondering about it in the audience. It's just part of the ritual.

00:36:03,93600:36:18,344

So I thought, okay I make a piece now about the movement where people just scratch their legs.

00:36:18,34400:36:23,452

Just to break something.

00:36:23,45200:36:28,909

This was the first piece… It's from 1996 or 1995.

00:36:28,90900:36:35,050

And the group Die Maulwerker played it. Steffi Weismann is also part of the Maulwerker.

00:36:35,05000:36:39,950

Then I made another piece, but it's not so important.

00:36:39,95000:36:51,316

In 2004 we started with Larry Peacock and one of the things which were very important for me, was to reflect on the body that is producing music.

00:36:51,31600:37:00,976

If you look at these gestures that are necessary to produce music, you can see it as an own beauty, or like a dance.

00:37:00,97600:37:27,195

So we were finding ways to make this visible. One of the pieces was that Sabine and I started to play a piece of experimental music and I had a sort of rhythm playing on my piano and then I start to play the rhythm in the air and I slowly go away from the instrument and I just do the movements to produce the rhythm in the air.

00:37:27,19500:37:39,211

The sound is still there and then I start to beat the body and then the sound is disappearing and you hear only the sticks on the body.

00:37:39,21100:37:45,875

Then Sabine also plays trumpet in the air without real trumpet.

00:37:45,87500:38:02,969

Beside of other things, beside of changing the shift of the genre, like: you think you are in a contemporary music or experimental music piece but you end being in a dance or performance piece. This shift is very interesting…

00:38:02,96900:38:23,228

but also this shift of having your body as something that creates sounds or having your body as the one who produces sounds.

00:38:23,22800:38:38,229

This is also an interface maybe, where it's just moving from one area to the other. Where it touches it is really interesting for me.

00:38:38,22900:38:41,956

00:38:41,95600:39:12,002

The Pariturenaustausch was a very nice moment where musicians and performers came together to talk about their practice and also to exchange scores. I think it was Antonia's idea to have this Partiturenaustausch and she told other friends and other friends told other friends that it would happen and maybe there were between 8 and 15 people.

00:39:12,00200:39:25,597

We met once in Ausland, once in KuLe, and who wanted could bring a score and show it to the others.

00:39:25,59700:39:31,751

I think we had different approaches to… Maybe Antonia should talk about this because I don't remember completely.

00:39:31,75100:39:48,446

There was also that everybody had a score and everybdoy gave it to someone else without talking about it and then we just looked at the results and see 'oh this was not at all what I imagined to see or this is exactly what I wanted to see'.

00:39:48,44600:39:58,372

I remember a piece by Petra Sabisch…

00:39:58,37200:40:13,829

It created some sort of meshings by people. It was just movements. I don't remember it exactly. But movements related to each other and it was very musical to. If you have…

00:40:13,82900:13:00

If you repeat movements in a certain time, the you see it as a rhythm, but it was like a very complex rhythm machine by movements.

Picture Larry Peacock

00:13:0000:18:00

Larry Peacock Ulf Sievers (aka Sabine Erklentz), Land (aka Andrea Neumann) and Henri Fleur (aka Antonia Baehr) Photo: Anja Weber

00:18:0000:00:00,859

Titles

00:00:00,85900:00:30,418

ECHTZEITMUSIK-SCENE

00:00:30,41800:09:52,497

00:09:52,49700:10:11,898

THE ROLE OF THE BODY IN MUSIC

00:10:11,89800:11:53,944

00:11:53,94400:12:12,926

SELF-ORGANIZATION OF A SCENE

00:12:12,92600:25:50,195

00:25:50,19500:26:09,195

IMPROVISATION

00:26:09,19500:29:08,558

00:29:08,55800:29:18,330

BONDS AND AFFINITIES

00:29:18,33000:38:35,561

00:38:35,56100:38:55,230

PARTITURENAUSTAUSCH / SCORE EXCHANGE

00:38:55,230